Are you ready for the step change from net zero strategies to transition planning?

This article is based on the second podcast in our series examining the preparations Australian business need to make for disclosures under the new mandatory climate-related financial reporting scheme. The focus of the podcast is transition plans - the work businesses need to do to turn their climate and net zero strategy into a detailed plan that demonstrates how the business will respond to a changing climate and decarbonising economy.

The conversation was led by Andy Tipping, partner, General Manager and Decarb Tech Lead at ERM Energetics, Australia. To bring both a global and regional perspective, he was joined by Max Crawford and Charlie Knaggs. Max is ERM’s Global Co-Head Climate Risk and Adaptation, based in the UK, and his focus is the nexus between climate change and the transition to net zero. Charlie is APAC Regional Partner for Decarbonisation. Based in Singapore, Charlie works across the Asia Pacific to help companies on their decarbonisation pathways. 

As we learn through the discussion, the disclosure is just the tip of the iceberg. 90% of the effort is in the planning, its execution and continuous improvement. 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the ERM Energetics Exchange podcast, conversations with climate risk and energy transition experts. Please note that the information and commentary in this podcast is of a general nature only, and listeners should not rely upon the content without first seeking advice from a professional.

Speaker 2: 0:20

Welcome to the new series of podcasts, which we are running under the umbrella of ERM Energetics, offering Australian business, both local and global insights. Before we start today's podcast, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of country and recognize their continuing connection to lands, waters, and communities. We pay our respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures and to elders past and present. I'd particularly like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Aurora Nation as the country from where we're recording today. Today is the second podcast in our series focused on preparations reporters need to make for disclosures under the new mandatory climate related financial reporting scheme. In this second episode, we're focusing on transition plans, the move businesses need to make to turn their climate and net zero strategy into a detailed plan that integrates internal and external activities to demonstrate how the business will respond to a changing climate and decarbonizing economy. I'm Andy Tipping partner at ERM and Decarbonization Technologies lead here in Australia. Today I'm delighted to be joined by my ERM colleagues, max Crawford and Charlie Nas . Hi, both. Max is an associate partner at ERM based in the uk. He's M's. Global co-head of Climate Risk and Adaptation, and his focus is the nexus between climate change and the transition to net zero. Recently he authored a particularly insightful and compelling paper titled ahead of the Climate Curve, leveraging Climate Transition Planning to prepare for a low carbon future, and most recently another article, moving transition from Plans to Action, a Transition Planning Primer. It's great to have you with us today. Thanks, max. Charlie is APAC regional partner for decarbonization based in Singapore. He works across the Asia Pacific region to help companies on their decarbonization pathways. Hello and welcome Charlie. He also used to work in Australia, so has a unique perspective across both geographies. Transition plans or transition planning is a hot topic amongst sustainability professionals globally and gaining momentum within larger corporates. In Australia in particular, the introduction of A SRS , the Australian Sustainability Reporting Standard is driving the market to move beyond existing high level strategies and make a step change in their approach. So to start us off, max , I was inspired to invite you having read your article , um, to be part of this podcast, and based on your recent paper and the experience you've had over the last few years advising across the UK and Europe , uh, what is a transition plan and why do companies and businesses need one?

Speaker 3: 2:45

Yeah, thank you Andy. And look, first to say , um, thanks very much for having me on this podcast. Really excited to be here. We can start with a definition , um, although, you know, I have a slide pack , um, where we talk about what is transition planning, and it's got a slide with several different definitions on it, right? So I think part of the, the problem is that we're not , um, defining this in consistent ways at the moment. The way that , um, ISSB defines it, which I think is one of the, the primary places to start, is an aspect of an entity's overall strategy that lays out the entity's targets actions or resources for its transition towards a low carbon economy, including actions such as reducing its greenhouse gas emissions. So in essence, it's building on what we've been doing over the last few years in terms of greenhouse gas inventories, decarbonization strategies, target setting for greenhouse gas mitigation, but actually I think transition plans expand and take this beyond typically what we've experienced and thought about , um, when doing decarbonization roadmaps and that kind of activity, I see it as really being the evolution of climate strategy. So it's really about moving from where we've been in the last few years, thinking very much about assessing and understanding where impacts and , um, you know, reductions in risk and maximizing opportunities might be across the climate space. Um, really now moving towards action. Okay, so how, how are we going to go about mitigating risk or decarbonizing? And I think we have to look at this all through the lens of making a business , uh, its business model, its value chain, the way that it makes money more resilient to the future, to the uncertainties of the future. So there's various ways of thinking about this. I think it's an evolution of, of climate strategy and that, you know, previously we talked about climate strategy as being quite, you know, ambitious target setting and being I think quite sort of public about those targets, but there was less teeth about really how are we going to get to those targets. So really now we're looking for insight , um, through disclosures in , in terms of how companies are going to get to those targets. It is of course being driven by regulation. So in Europe we have , um, the corporate sustainability reporting directive and, and laterally we will then have the corporate sustainability due diligence directive in the uk we've also had the TPT, which is a ta uh , transition plan task force , um, not regulation yet, but it has been , uh, subsumed into ISSB , which perhaps gives it some global significance. And it's a disclosure framework, right? So it's similar to , to TCFD, the task force for climate related financial disclosures in many ways , um, but really goes much quite a lot beyond that. And if it becomes regulation at , at any point, I think it's a very holistic view of what transition planning requires. And for me there's , there's three key ways that it makes it, I think, more challenging and the need for it to be much better integrated into corporate strategy. The first of those is this , this idea of engagement with the value chain, right? So a lot of the work we've done on, you know, greenhouse gas and transition risks and that kind of thing has been quite operational. We have expanded into the supply chain and of course now looking at scope three, we're doing much more of that, but I think transition planning makes that much more , um, brings it much more front and center because we all know that no one can get to net zero by themselves. So it , it elevates it to be a much more sort of systems level view. One of the other way that I think transition planning is different is that it, it's, it's all about integration into financial planning. So not only are we bringing corporate strategy together, but it's about financial planning as well. So what are the resources that are being made available to, to achieve the, the ambition of the, of the transition plan, and of course disclosing some of those key financial metrics and targets as well. That's really important. I think the last thing that makes transition planning more complicated, more, more broad, but I think much more sort of , um, you know, real and , and actually potentially driving a lot of efficiency in the way that we think about sustainability topics is that it's not just about climate. So yes, it's about climate mitigation, it's about climate adaptation, but also I think we have to con we have to consider other sustainability imperatives in there as well. So not ignoring nature water and also social factors so that we don't end up with I negative impacts trade offs, dependencies, you know, unintended consequences if we, for example, have a mitigation lever , um, which is, you know, short term benefit to greenhouse gas mitigation, but potentially, you know, longer term negative consequences for social factors. So we don't want organizations to be making those sorts of decisions in isolation. It has to be part of a , a coherent approach.

Speaker 2: 7:19

But if this is the first time you're really having a crack at a transition plan, and we know from having talked to our clients, a lot of them are, are staring down the barrel of this in the next 12 months or so, really trying to think through, you know, where do I start? What do I need to do? How do I mobilize my business effectively? What are the, you know, three or four things that, that a large corporate or a , you know , a a smaller corporate that's now captured under this legislation maybe for the first time needs to do to, to mobilize?

Speaker 3: 7:44

So in terms of where you might start, I think the less mature of our clients are already some way down this road, right? They've done fairly robust greenhouse gas inventories. They probably have a relatively good idea, particularly of where their scope one and two decarb decarbonization levers might be. They've probably done some climate risk assessments and maybe they're now starting to think about nature as well through, for example, you know, leap assessments. But I think all of those activities, they tend to happen on a needs basis, right? It tends to be, oh, there's been this driver for this or this investor's asking for that, or, you know, whatever it might be. And so that's kind of scatter gun , right? It's like reactionary. And so I think one of the first things to do is, is consolidate all of those different initiatives that will be going on across an organization, maybe, you know , oftentimes coming out of the corporate sustainability , uh, or climate function , um, hopefully cascading down into the, into the organization itself. But like you , you need to have your arms around all of those things that are going on. And I think first principles would be get the house in order, understand the level of maturity for each of those initiatives , um, and then think about consolidating those into a consistent plan so that you can draw the thread through it. Because often we find that there are, you know, there's a , a function over here in an organization that's doing something that's, you know, a , a clear input for a transition plan, or it would be, you know, something around a technology option or a pilot of something to do with, you know, a decarbonization lever. And then over here there'll be another function that's doing something to do with like supply chain. But actually putting those two things together, there can be efficiency. So there needs to be that overarching , um, you know, governance I think of, of what's going on. I think the other thing to think about is that, you know, this is a continuous process. The idea that this is something that you will do once, it will take a few months. Maybe you'll have a consulting partner come in and help you with it. Um, and then, and then you'll put it down, is not true, right? This has to be thought of as something that you are doing consistently. It's transition planning and every so often, perhaps once every three years or something like that, you have a transition plan, which is your marker in the sand of like how much progress you've made, what your intention is over the next three year period. Um , and fundamentally that's well integrated into business as usual processes like budgeting, risk management strategy, that kind of thing. But it's a consistent process. It's something that needs to be monitored, progress needs to be updated like annually , um, that kind of thing. So I think it's important to think of how it can be better integrated into strategy. And the last, last few things I want to say here are , um, where you should focus your efforts. So I think , um, in the early stages, really you want to have internal stakeholder engagement. You need to establish cross-company ownership. There needs to be, for example, board or executive committee level sponsorship for this, this type of initiative. Um, and that will help too . So top down cascading, you know, data gathering and management is extremely important. You will have data gaps that's perfectly normal and it's quite okay, but you need to be aware of what they are and what you're doing to try and , um, make the data better. So having a management process in place is important. Um, and then there's these two other things, right? So when we think about business resilience , um, we're really thinking about, okay, where are there risks and opportunities or impacts? Um, and if we think about other topics like nature, potentially dependencies as well on the business model. Yeah . So how resilient is it to shocks to climate hazards, to the needs to decarbonize and different organizations and different industries will have a different picture of that, right? But the idea about transformation is a sliding scale and if you have lots of risk or or opportunity to your business model, then it's potentially more need to transform. Whereas if you are in, for example, a services industry, that kind of thing, then it's probably more around the edges, right? The idea of ho holistic or, you know, complete transformation is probably not necessary. So it needs to be thought of in the right frame about how much do you need to do to be resilient. Um, and the last thing is like , this is, it's an opportunity, right? Every, you know, lots of organ , lots of people, lots of stakeholders in in the value chain are asking for this, regulators, investors, lenders, et cetera. So this is an opportunity to put the best foot forward, right? It's a communications piece. Um, and so I think understanding that from the outset can be extremely helpful in terms of, for example, the decarbonization levers that you might want to prioritize the way that you'll think about innovating products and services, that kind of thing. So I think, you know, just just to say that , um, don't, don't have a transition plan just because you, you think you need to have one, see it as an opportunity to potentially differentiate yourself in the market.

Speaker 2: 12:23

No , absolutely. Absolutely. And one of the things we, we see here in Australia, and I'm interested to know whether you see similar things within your client base in Europe is reasonable level of buy-in at the very senior levels an organization, but then these things just get stuck in, in the middle tier. So there's this kind of, you know, challenge to, to push through that. And I dunno whether transition planning is, you know, starting to, starting to move the needle on those, those issues. 'cause we certainly see that the remits getting wider and wider, but you've still got a lot of organizational issues which are actually preventing, you know, progress on, on some of the easy stuff even.

Speaker 3: 13:00

Yeah , that's a great point. What we generally see is there's still a corporate function that has the good ideas that maybe can develop a very good transition plan. Maybe some of those elements are bottom up , but it's still quite a lot of pushing, pushing down. I think the whole point about , um, transition planning and the point I made earlier about, you know, having cross company ownership is there needs to be that cascade down into different functions, potentially right down to the asset level. Charlie, you have probably done this when thinking about decarbonization plans, right ? Is that you need to take that corporate level plan and make it relevant for assets, right? And assets will have a different , um, you know , portfolio of options available to them that you can see at the corporate level where maybe all options are available because they're across all assets, but that needs to be made much more tangible and there needs to be buy-in. So I think one of the things that can help with that is, is making resources available. That's, of course, everyone's resource constrained at the moment. Um, but I also think, you know, resources are not just financial, they are the capacity and capability of your people. And so making sure that everyone is, is, and it's not saying you can get buy-in from everyone, right? I don't mean that flippantly, but, you know, to make sure that there is at least organizational awareness and buy-in from key people at different levels of the organization early on in the process, I think can, can help.

Speaker 2: 14:19

Yeah , and I mean, Charlie, bringing you into the conversation. So you're in Singapore, you've got a good view across the APAC region working in many jurisdictions. What are you seeing in terms of maturity of transition planning within, you know, Asian markets and within some of the customers that you work with? And I'm also interested to get, get your view on the differences in Australia versus versus APAC and, and obviously with your move to Singapore in the last few years. Uh , what's that ? What , what , what have you seen on the ground? Uh, thanks

Speaker 4: 14:49

Andy. Uh, so climate risk, decarbonization, net zero transition, these are all key business topics in Asia. Companies are, are very familiar with them, talk about them all the time, doing a lot of work in these areas. But as a general comment, I would say we are probably not as progressed here in terms of holistic climate transition planning as certainly what , um, max is describing in , in Europe and, and , and possibly what we're starting to see in Australia as well. Most large companies in Asia have identified and assessed climate risks and opportunities, but they're still at the stage of understanding what that means for the business and really trying to think about how, how does that impact on the business model and , and , and change the way that they do business in future. Um, TCFD is still a dominant framework, I think it's fair to say, although that is changing very quickly in Asia, like in the rest of the world. We're seeing a real proliferation of mandatory disclosure regimes coming online , uh, all the time here in Singapore, Hong Kong, Thailand, Malaysia, where all these countries are are , uh, are seeing mandatory disclosure come online. And ISSB , uh, IFRS is the, is the dominant standard for those mandatory disclosures. So that's starting to up the ante and , and , and the expectations when it comes to transition planning. I've been in Asia for 18 months now. I just wanted to share a couple of learnings that I've had since I've been here. The first one, and maybe this is, maybe this is obvious, but Asia is not a homogenous region. It is lots and lots of countries, they all have dramatically different regulatory frameworks, different levels of maturity, different cultural traditions. Um, and so to really understand Asia, you need to look at individual countries and take that nuance view. Um, and, and when you do that, you see that there are quite a few barriers to transition. Uh , the , the transition itself, and I think they feed back into maybe the , the lower uptake of, of transition planning in Asia , uh, to date . So it's everything from geographic factors. Like for example, you know, wind power is not really an option in Southeast Asia because the wind doesn't really blow here. So you need to think about other, other renewable energy options or, you know, expanding the electricity grid in a lot of Southeast Asian countries is a lot more expensive than it is in other parts of the world because those countries are acapellas and, you know, crossing water is expensive through to, I think this is a key barrier that we see in a lot of Asian countries. The governments rely heavily on fossil fuel based state owned corporations for government revenue. Um, and that government , government revenue fund social programs. And that creates real, real challenges from a transition perspective because what are you gonna replace that, that revenue with? How , how are you gonna transition away from those incumbent large fossil fuel based state owned corporations to something that can provide a similar level of, of social support for the countries and taxation revenue and so on and so forth. And the closing point is just that on , on the other hand, there is a real culture of sustainability in, in many Asian countries that I don't feel in western countries. And there's a real connection to environment and a real tradition of social participation and people kind of looking after each other that we don't see in western countries. I think that's a real tailwind as far as as transition planning in the region goes.

Speaker 2: 18:01

Yeah, and I think the , the mention around just transition is certainly not been lord for many companies, all countries in, in the level of detail that it needs to be. So I'm interested to hear what you were saying about the , the state owned , uh, the state owned businesses , um, across the region. So in terms of companies that are doing, doing this well, max, I'm interested in both , both of your perspectives. Um, but start with you Max, which, which companies or sectors do you see as the leading lights , um, in this area? If you know, you were looking for who you should look to from a vegan perspective?

Speaker 3: 18:29

It's a good question. It's an interesting one from my perspective. I , I kind of think it would be okay at this stage to say, well, is is anyone really doing this? Like amazingly well this idea of integrated transition planning and that kind of thing? No, probably not because it's, it's extremely challenging. Um, we have this year seen some transition plans be released that put, you know, some elements of nature alongside climate. Um, so for example, you know, HSBC's transition plan tries to do that in, in a few different places. Um, I think, you know, there is a difference potentially between, you know, the, the way in which or information can be disclosed and you know, how integrated those two processes are internally. And that's not a comment, you know, against HSBC in any way, but I just think <crosstalk>

Speaker 1: 19:16

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Speaker 3: 19:20

You have to try and think about and draw the lines between, well, what's, what's in disclosures and then what's going on underneath, underneath the hood, underneath the bonnet, so to speak. I think there's always more going on internally and transition planning introduces these sort of harder to do concepts of, for example, you know, disclosing some of those commercial , um, some of that commercial information or financial, you know, is, is the plan resourced information that, you know, is potentially quite sensitive. And so I think people are still wrestling with some of those things. So like in general, the integration to financial planning and financial metrics and targets is somewhere where nearly everyone falls down. Um, you know, that said, I think BHPs most recent transition plan does a pretty good job of that released in the last couple of months. Um, you know, I think Unilever has traditionally been , um, you know, one of those, one of those companies that you would say kind of sets the , sets the tone. Um, obviously their plan this year has got a slightly different, you know, context for them in terms of par par , you know, potentially slightly resetting I suppose. But , um, I still think it does a really nice job across multiple areas. And then there's a , you know, there's lots of others like, okay, but I think that one of the pieces I mentioned earlier about , um, you know, engaging with the value chain and initiatives that are going on in the value chain. I think if you look at ball , um, climate transition plan from 2023, they, they , they have quite a nice section, excuse me, on , uh, the different, you know, engagements that they have going on with their suppliers and in the value chains, for example, you know, trade associations, that kind of thing. Um, and, you know, transition plan disclosures are really looking for transparency on that type of information. They're also looking for, okay, you know, what are the actions that you're doing, where do you expect to see impacts? Um, and I think that's something that where , you know, having lists of , uh, those value chain engagements isn't, isn't quite good enough. Um, so you want to be able to show where, where they're having a positive impact. Um, in terms of industries and sectors, look, the , the power sector has been at the, you know, the forefront of this , um, for, for quite a long time in terms of the transformation that's already gone on in , in that industry. Um, you know, to an extent you would've thought maybe automotive is, is similar, but I think, you know, we don't see that many , um, standout transition plans from from automotive yet. Um, I think there are some, some, there's some good reporting , um, from industries like oil and gas , um, in terms of, you know, how credible are those in terms of like, do they align with the, you know, outcomes of the Paris agreement, that kind of thing, if that's what you you care about, and it is what some regulation cares about. Um, from a transition plan perspective, that's something that we could probably discuss at great length , um, and separately. And then I think things like metals and mining in generally do quite a nice job of , um, of their disclosures. But again, it is a mixed bag. And look, there are , um, exact this year there's been a raft of examples of other transition plans that I think do do a nice job in different areas.

Speaker 2: 22:14

Yeah. And we are seeing similar here in terms of that sector split. I mean, obviously it's a slightly different , uh, makeup in terms of, you know, what , what drives the economy , uh, in Australia. But, but certainly we're seeing the tier ones doing, doing reasonably well. You know, they're the ones with the capacity to, to to , to take this sort of challenge on and, and , and do a good job. But there's a, there's a huge sway that the market that really hasn't, hasn't looked at this in any detail. Um, and they're , they're the ones with the , the , the work to do, I suspect. Um, Charlie, from, from from the, you know , APAC perspective, what's the , what , what's your view on which companies are, are outperforming or which sectors are , are , are doing this best?

Speaker 5: 22:54

Uh , well, I , I , firstly, I agree with Max. I , I think that probably fair to say that no one is doing this really well at the moment. Um, uh, certainly that applies in Asia as it does in the rest of the world , um, especially in terms of kind of integration into financial modeling, but also really clearly articulating the, the business model and the product mix that are gonna allow the company to thrive in a net zero future. I think that's, that's the first thing. This , the second comment I would make again, I think aligned to what Max was talking about is there's, there's probably a big gap at the moment between disclosure and we see some high quality disclosures, but does that necessarily mean it's a high quality transition plan? I think there's probably still , um, you know, we, we, we need a , we need better ways of, of assessing , um, you know, the quality of a transition plant based on the disclosure. And I think Max in the, in the TPT, they talk about an iceberg where, you know, the disclosure is really the tip of the iceberg. And then, and then you've got the, the body of the iceberg underwater, the 90% or whatever it is that is , um, uh, that is really the kind of hard work that has to go on in the background to really drive forward a disclosure plan. And I think we're probably seeing some decent icebergs at the moment, but, but , uh, the , there's not a lot of sort of ballast underneath, underneath the water. Um, so, so I think all of that holds true in, in Asia. Um, and, and, and, you know, from a sectoral perspective, same, same comments , uh, as both of you had. I think it's the oil and gas companies, power companies, banking and finance is the other one where, where we see a particular interest in transition planning. Um, obviously those are the , those are the sectors with the most at stake here. Um, so it makes sense that they would be the ones that, that , uh, are on the front foot in terms of transition planning. One client of our Medco energy , uh, a Indonesian oil and gas company , uh, power generator , um, have , uh, I would put them in the , in the group of leaders here in Asia. They've got a , a climate change strategy that, that does make a serious attempt to talk about transitioning away from fossil fuels and the, you know, the , the role of , uh, key levers like CCS and nature-based storage and, and store , uh, you know , uh, battery, sorry, nature-based solutions and battery storage , uh, to, to help achieve the , the transition. Um, so, so yeah, I , you , you know, we are , we're still looking for industries and companies in Asia, I think, to really step up and be exemplars in this, in this space.

Speaker 3: 25:29

Just to quickly jump on, one of the things you , you said, Charlie , so the , the implementation iceberg was actually one of the, our ideas , um, from, from ERM , which was trying to capture the idea that, you know, you will do this , um, you'll have your disclosure, that's something you , you do once every three years, but actually everything that's going on underneath that is this idea that it's integrated, it's ongoing , um, and actually implementing the parts of the, you know, the actions, tactics and initiatives as part of the plan is, is kind of where the rubber meets the road, right? And having a , a good strategy, you know, in a, in a way that , um, you know, where you understand the value drivers you're prioritizing. Um, and then of course when it's, you know, whatever it might be, whether it's engaging with the supply chain, whether it's asset decommissioning, whether it's new capital projects, that kind of thing. There's a whole piece around like the implementation of the plan, which goes on underneath the surface, and then of course would become part of the next disclosure, which you can update on progress on and , um, have the next set of tactics and actions. So yeah , just to , just to say that

Speaker 2: 26:36

I like , I like the iceberg analogy and I , I wonder whether it's only the 10% that people have actually done. So the whole , the whole 90% is what , what hasn't been done. So , uh, may , may , maybe that's the , that's the challenge ahead of us for the next, the next five to 10 years. And if we bring it back to the , the transition planning piece , um, Matt's interested, any final words of advice , um, other than having a good consulting partner to help you through this, you know, the stormy waters and navigating the icebergs , um, what, what , what else would you be recommending to, to your clients?

Speaker 3: 27:17

Yeah, thanks Charlie. Um, it is, I think, a difficult subject to, to summarize in a few words, but , um, you know, we've talked about some, some pretty thorny issues of transition planning today. We've also, you know, set out some of the, the ways that make it challenging, you know, transformation. Um, I think now though, companies really have to have at least some sliding scale of transformation in their DNA to be successful because the world's changing very quickly. It's also highly uncertain. So to be able to pivot, be agile, you know, quickly, I think is, is always a benefit. And to be very well aware of the threats , um, to your resilience, I think is something else that needs to be very, you need to be very aware of. Does that mean you have to change everything right now? No. Um, you know, we have to be, I think, focused on value. So we have to see where there are , um, opportunities to, to reduce costs where there are opportunities to , um, potentially move into new markets to develop new products or services. The transition is underway. We're talking about the uncertainties about how fast it will happen, right? And to what extent we are already in a transition and perhaps we've always been in a transition. So this is about , um, you know, prioritizing where you can find value in those changes and how you can continue to make sure that your organization is, is profitable, if that's the, the, the key metric for you and continues to return value to its stakeholders. I think it's important to, to do less. You know, right now many of our clients have got so much going on. Um, and actually the compliance thing, particularly from European regulation is, is a challenge. And I think that's , um, it's sort of , uh, it's , um, stymieing, you know, some of those , um, uh, more , um, sort of strategic OB objectives , um, because everyone's very focused on, on just meeting the compliance priorities. But I think beyond that , um, as we bet in with that and get more used to it and can maybe think about some of those more strategic implications beyond that, I think we have to all do less, right? But we have to do that less, much better. Um, so I think simplify would be my key recommendation. And then, you know, the best transition plans in that view of, you know, being simplistic, be very clear about what you're going to do in the next three years, make sure that those are achievable and be very clear about where you are , have uncertainties, but also where you have dependencies, right? So fine, it's a system, no one gets to net zero by themselves, but to have this clear view of , for example, where you have policy dependencies, what are you doing about that credibly, where are you, you know, through responsible policy engagement, that kind of thing, or through your engagement with trade associations, where are you trying to move , move the needle favorably for, for where you have have gaps and uncertainties in your planning? And then this idea about integration, okay, so we could, we're very focused on carbon and that's probably right, but we need to not lose sight of , um, other sustainability factors. And I think being very focused on net zero alone, is it , it has its own risks, right? And opportunities, but risks. And so I think this idea of integrating these other factors at bare minimum, right? So that there aren't negative consequences , um, and, and adverse impacts later on through our decision making about greenhouse gas mitigation, I think that's extremely important. Um, and I think the best plans will be simple and we'll set those terms out quite clearly.

Speaker 2: 30:47

Thanks, max. That was , uh, that was, that was a good summary and , uh, thanks both for your, your time and your insights on this call. It's been a , an , an enjoyable walkthrough. You know, the, the , the , the global policy components, the , the regional differences. And then really for me, it's just highlighted that there's a large amount of work to do. Um , I mean , there's different levels of maturity, I understand that. And the , the , the points you made around continuous improvement, I think that's something that everyone can grab onto , depending , no matter where you are on that, on that spectrum, there's a , there's , there's the point where you can start and you can certainly improve and evolve over time . Um, so I think that's probably the , the main takeaway for me that this is gonna be a, you know, a whole of business activity. You gotta do a lot of stakeholder engagement to get, get that buy-in resource up so that, so that you can really engage with what is a pretty complex and rapidly changing subject matter. And then really just make a start , um, and then evolve it over time as , uh, uh, as the transition, you know , uh, unfolds around you. So on that note , um, I'd just like to wrap up and , uh, and if you'd like a more tailored briefing or you've enjoyed listening to the conversation, you wanna ask questions or have a discussion about any of the topics raised, please contact us, either Charlie Max or myself or any one of the energetics or ERM account managers or contacts for our website, and we'll be delighted to , uh, have a further conversation. Thank you.